1 sub or 2?

[mac40kfan]

I recently purchased a Kenwood Music Keg and Excelon KDC-X579 hu. I know that Kenwood gear doesn't get a lot of love, but I really wanted the Music Keg and a Kenwood hu was a requirement to be able to control it. Now that I have this stuff, I've started toying with the idea of upgrading other parts of my audio system in my tired old '92 Camry as well.

It goes without saying that I'm a noob when it comes to high performance audio, but after researching for the last few days, I'm leaning toward replacing the Kenwood 2-ways in the front with Diamond Audio Hex components with silk tweets (although I reserve the right to wimp out and downgrade to something a bit less expensive). From the limited exposure I've had to component systems, I think I prefer silk over aluminum. I'm not planning to replace the Polk Audio 6x9 3-ways in the rear since from what I've read, they should be providing fill only. I've decided I will be powering both sets of speakers with a Soundstream Van Gogh VGA800.5 5-channel amp. I would prefer to have a seperate 4-channel amp with a dedicated mono amp for the sub, but at this point I'd rather spend the money on better speakers with the option to add or replace the amp later. This amp outputs 50x4 & 200x1 RMS @<hidden> 4ohms, double those figures @<hidden> 2ohms and can be had for $249 on eBay. It seems to be the best bang for the buck while fitting into my overall budget. I figure the 50x4 is okay for the front/rear, but I'm concerned that the sub out will be wimpy. As I said though, it's a compromise.

Anyway, I really have no idea what subs to marry to this amp. I'm leaning towards Soundstream simply by rep alone since I have no place local to "audition" anything other than the stuff Best Buy carries. :tongue009

For around $150 I can get either a single Soundstream Van Gogh VGW-12 (600 watts RMS) or a pair of Edge Series EG-12X (350 watts RMS (ea, 700 total?)). First of all, are either of these options going to sound okay considering the VGA800.5's sub output? My thinking is I'd rather spend a bit more on the sub(s) now, even if it is underpowered and be able to add a dedicated mono amp down the road rather than get subs rated for 200 watts RMS to match the amp and have to replace them later as well. If that's doable without the sub(s) sounding like crap or potentially being damaged, which option is preferable and why? In short, is my money better spent on one higher priced sub or two lower priced subs?

Sorry for the long post, but I figured more info would allow people to make a better response. In addition to answering the 1 or 2 sub question, feel free to suggest other subs that are a better match to the VGA800.5, bearing in mind that I'm looking to keep the sub budget under $200, but don't bother to recommend more expensive amps and/or multiple amp arrangements as the overall budget for this project won't allow it.

[Scarrell]

your speakers will be fine with 50rms to each.... the Diamonds will sound alot better than them Kenwoods. from your post it sounds like you dont know if you will have enough bass? more treble/mids than bass? right? well when you add a sub it should be well rounded out. so i wouldnt worry about that, if you have room for two then go with two, two subs will add a little more bass. but thats up to you. other subs to look at are..... Resonant Engineer RE's and the next line i think is in your area. also look into Adire Audio Shiva's... if you can fit a 15" id go with a Tempest :bigwink: i hope i helped, i just woke up so.....

[Ryan from Ohio]

I would go with a single sub, 15 if you could. With the low power the tempest should rock your car.

BTW if you want to save money have a look at the CDT comps at www.thezeb.com

A really nice set is there to be had for $150, this set normally goes for $300+

[Scarrell]

yup the Tempest would definately rock that car, i still cant believe the sound quality and how low it can drop and how loud it gets with only 150rms... it was $166.28 shipped to me (Illinois) and www.acoustic-visions.com sells adire for the same price shipped (instead of $150 plus shipping from Adire its $150 shipped, they work with each other) so check in to them, call Adire or Acoustic Visions and ask if they are in stock before you order.

pics of the box/tempest:

http://www.sounddomain.com/memberpage/738344

[mac40kfan]

Thanks for the responses. I talked with my local installer and he says 10's product the most accurate bass. I'd heard this before from another source, so now I'm planning to go with 10" rather than 12". As for the 1 or 2 question, he said while two would have more surface area and hence be able to push more air, it wouldn't significantly improve the sound quality, assuming you're using a high-quality 10" to start with. So, it looks like I'll opt for a single 10" in a sealed enclosure. He carries (and was pushing) the Eclipse 5-channel amp and sub, but I still haven't decided whether or not I want to try to save a few bucks, buy the equipment off eBay, and do the install myself or just fork over the $2 grand he's asking for to install/tune the whole setup (including new Viper alarm/remote start system).

[Scarrell]

10"s do produce most accurate response yes. $2,000 for what exactly? what ALL are you getting for $2,000, list the products...etc..

[Ryan from Ohio]

10's producing the most accurate bass?

Thats a false statemnt!

It is sometimes true, but not always! Be careful!

$2G's ouch

[audiobass10]

Yea id also like to see what all you're getting for 2g's. Local dealers sell for major retail. If I were you id definitely look online. If you're afraid of installing something yourself then you could still have a local installer do it for you. Most of them don't care who's stuff they're installing. The viper alarm might be a different situation. A lot of dealers are pissed by the fact you can buy Viper off ebay, because supposedly you're not suppose to be able to. However, I plan on buying the the 791XV off ebay and i'm gettin a local viper dealer to install it for me. As for your sub..I think a Tempest or Shivas would be the best way to go for the money. Don't buy into the 10's being more accurate myth. Although sometimes they might be..sometimes a 15 might be more accurate than certain 10's! Eclipse is very nice stuff, so it wouldn't be right steering you away from them, but for the money you cant beat the Shivas and Tempest IMO.

[Scarrell]

well hey in most cases i have seen, 10"s were the most accurate... but anyway, yeah please list what all you are getting, from wiring to F'n fuses...etc... because $2,000 is alot of money. and you dont want to spend that much on somethin that really isnt worth it... as for Eclipse.... excellent stuff, but for the money there are products just as good, like Adire.... so let us know everything.

[71buickfreak]

[QUOTE=Ryan from Ohio]10's producing the most accurate bass?

Thats a false statemnt!

Not at all false! a 10" sub will produce in most instances, tighter bass due to its lesser mass. that's not saying a big SPL-geared 10 with a stiff surround and and a heavy mass cone will sound better than a sq-based 12 with a lighter mass, that's apples to oranges, but apples to apples, the 10" will yeild a better quality sound, while the 12 will yeild more spl. simple physics people. ever try to get real SQ out a 15" too much moving mass to control efficiently. It can be done with things like servo controls, but generally speaking, the bigger the the cone, the more spl at a cost of SQ.

As far as buying online vs. in a retail store, come on people! do you really think you will get as good service on the internet than in a shop? Please! especially for a beginner, you need to go to a 12v specialist shop. where you can get a real warranty and service after the sale. $2000 might seem like a lot, but you will get the service you won't get online. 99.9% of all online bought goods carries no warranty. it is either refurbished or gray market goods. unless it is low-level equipment, most manufacturers don't allow their products to be sold on the internet. if it is, its used, or refurbished or like I said gray market meaning an authorized dealer sold it to another dealer who is putting on the internet illegally. seriously people, internet buying is not the best idea. ebay is ok because its usually used, but there is no warranty! if 2k is out of your range, buy it a little at a time and you will end up much happier than if you buy on the internet and have a problem. Shop around, you don't have to buy at the first shop you go to. as far as Kenwood is concerned, its great stuff, you have an excellent warranty because you bought it from an authorized dealer and it will sound awesome. the music keg is cool. The eclipse is good stuff. you might also look at the crossfire line. great gear, excellent warranty and it will be less expensive than the eclipse. where are you located? I can help you find a good shop in your area. :fing02:

[Justin from Detroit]

:words

OR look into ARC Audio which recently beat Crossfire is a SQ competition with their lowest-end model ;)

[audiobass10]

As far as buying online vs. in a retail store, come on people! do you really think you will get as good service on the internet than in a shop? Please! especially for a beginner, you need to go to a 12v specialist shop. where you can get a real warranty and service after the sale. $2000 might seem like a lot, but you will get the service you won't get online. 99.9% of all online bought goods carries no warranty. it is either refurbished or gray market goods. unless it is low-level equipment, most manufacturers don't allow their products to be sold on the internet. if it is, its used, or refurbished or like I said gray market meaning an authorized dealer sold it to another dealer who is putting on the internet illegally. seriously people, internet buying is not the best idea. ebay is ok because its usually used, but there is no warranty! if 2k is out of your range, buy it a little at a time and you will end up much happier than if you buy on the internet and have a problem. Shop around, you don't have to buy at the first shop you go to. as far as Kenwood is concerned, its great stuff, you have an excellent warranty because you bought it from an authorized dealer and it will sound awesome. the music keg is cool. The eclipse is good stuff. you might also look at the crossfire line. great gear, excellent warranty and it will be less expensive than the eclipse. where are you located? I can help you find a good shop in your area. Sounds like you own a shop yourself eh? I would never discourage anyone to buy from a shop. They do offer warranties as you stated, but online does as well. Most any authorized dealers online sell warrantied products. As for buying refurbished..I'm a big fan of that. Take into consideration what refurbished actually means...you're basically getting a new product. Personally, I haven't heard of many people who have problems w/ their refurbs, but like i said even a lot of sites online offer warranties even on refurbished items(usually 90 day). I love ebay as well. Never been screwed or disapointed with them. If you're a smart ebayer and shopper you will likely find yourself a good deal and end up happy. I like looking for ebay stores, because most of the time they own a shop and have store hours in which you can reach them. If you have no knowledge of car audio I wouldn't suggest going to a shop to buy your first system. I would suggest researching more online until you get familiar with the basics and learn what will work best for you. Local shops are great to buy from for warranties and fast customer service, but honestly research before buying anything..that's the key. Many car audio shops will rip the consumer who is new to the car audio scene. That's how they make their money. However, you will find some shops that will steer you in the right direction.

[71buickfreak]

actually I used to be a 12v manager for a retail shop I am now a designer at the manufacturers level and a freelance writer for mobile Electronics magazine. I agree, refurbs can be good. I have a few refurbs in my system I am building now. I also agree to do your reseach, i never buy ANYTHING without researching it first. but I do disagree with your statement that most online companies offer a warranty. yes, most state they warranty their products, but they either have an in-house repair shop or they ignore you. it has appened to my friend several times (he never listens) unless the manufacturer states they authorize online sales, the product you buy won't be warrantied by the manufacturer. you need to check with the manuafacturer themsleselves to be sure the online dealer is legit. some are, alot are not.

[71buickfreak]

and yes there are alot of crappy shops out there, I have worked at those in the past, they suck. that's why I suggest you shop around and look for the shop that is willing to teach you and show you why you need what you need. I always showed my customers something they couldnt get anywhere else, like a wattage calculator or a real demo they couldn't see anywhere else.

[71buickfreak]

arc audio is good stuff. I have no problems with arc.

[audiobass10]

but I do disagree with your statement that most online companies offer a warranty. yes, most state they warranty their products, but they either have an in-house repair shop or they ignore you. it has appened to my friend several times (he never listens) unless the manufacturer states they authorize online sales, the product you buy won't be warrantied by the manufacturer. you need to check with the manuafacturer themsleselves to be sure the online dealer is legit. some are, alot are not. Good point. There really is no way to be sure if the place you're dealing with will stand behind their warrantee. That is a risk you take when buying off ebay. Best thing to do is check their feedback. See what other customers have complained about. I usually only buy from sellers with 99% or better positive feedback. I guess you really couldn't guarantee a local shop owner will stand behind his guarantee because a warantee is only as good as the amount of time the shop stays open.

[71buickfreak]

true. although I worked for one shop that has been open since 79 and it sucked. I worked for another that has been open the same amount of time and it was great! the biggest part of all of it is the manufacturer will guarantee the product even if the shop desn't because they are an authorized dealer. and if the shop won't heko you, they can lose the line if they deny you service. it helps keep them on their toes.

[Ryan from Ohio]

a 10" sub will produce in most instances

In most, but not always. You even say so yourself.

Thank you!

Online purchasing is good as long as you buy from reputable dealers online. The problem with online purchasing is the people who are so cheap they search out the absolute lowest price. Usually from an online place noone has heard of. THe price different usually is not to great, around 3-5% less than the known places on the net.

Buying from places like thezeb, mmxpress, etronics and such you KNOW you will be be taken care of properly. Many of us here use these places on a cinsitance basis and know their policies quite well. Furthermore these busines have been around for some time and have proper reputations.

IMHO as long as you pick out a place to buy from our FAQ section you will be in good shape.

[71buickfreak]

ahh semantics. I was simply saying that it was not a false statement, it is generally accepted that 10 are more accurate than their respective 12" counterparts.

[mac40kfan]

Okay folks, here's the deal. All prices listed are what I could find through eBay Stores and include shipping. All equipment is claimed to be NIB, not refurb, not previously returned, etc.

Eclipse PA5532 5-channel amp (50x4+200x1@<hidden> ohms) $316.97
Eclipse SW9102 Titanium 10" sub $304.95
Alpine SPX-117R 6.5" Type X component speakers $244

That comes to $865.92
Add to that approx $62 for the sealed enclosure sub box and $114 for the q forms kick panels and we're up to $1041.92

The guy @<hidden> Car Tunes told me the Viper security system with remote start is $400 installed. I haven't shopped online for security systems since I don't know anything about brands/quality and it is something that I would definitely pay someone to install. However, Circuit City told me $350 installed for whatever brand alarm/remote start they are selling and it doesn't even have the glass breakage sensor. At least I've heard of Viper.

So, assume I get the guy at Car Tunes to put in the Viper and install the gear I buy myself, I'm up to $1441.92. The difference between the ballpark $2000 I was quoted and the $1441.92 figure is roughly $558. The question then is how much will the install run me if I buy the gear myself? I didn't get a price breakdown when I was at the store. Should I be concerned that he might charge more to install gear I bring him since he's losing the margin on the equipment sale?

I'm guessing I'd still save a couple hundred bucks buying the equipment myself. However, if I buy from Car Tunes I'd have a warranty and the shop is around the corner if there was ever a problem. Every major manufacturer's site that I've been to says they don't authorize their equipment for sale over the Internet and if you buy from anyone but an authorized dealer, you void the warranty. Some of the eBay stores carry their own warranty, but you have to remove the equipment, pay to ship it back, and are subject to their inspection/determination as to whether or not they will cover it. Most of the eBay stores that carry car audio seem to be located in CA and I'm in VA, so we're talking 3 hour time delay even assuming I have a contact number to call and cross-country shipping.

Of course, I could save even more by shopping for alternative equipment, but I wanted to get the apples to apples comparison done first. Then I have to consider the value of the store warranty versus the cost savings of buying gear online and the potential for something going wrong.

[GlassWolf]

really motor strength is more vital to the accuracy of the subwoofer than cone area.
yes mass*velocity=momentum, and it takes more energy to stop something with a greater momentum, and reverse it's direction, but what really matters is how well you can control whatever that mass may be. In this case it's the mass of the speaker cone, and with proper magnetic field strength and motor control, a larger sub with better motor field strength will outperform a smaller, weaker sub.
The point of this is once again that you can't base any judgement about a product solely on a single spec or statistic. You need to take everything into account when trying to compare two products side by side to see which will actually perform better.
the amount of amplifier power, and the amp's damping factor will have a large impact as well.

[71buickfreak]

to Kiki- absolutely correct. everything works out when you compare apples to apples

as far as the gear goes, the viper is a great alarm. go with it.
the Kickpanels that is a really good deal, those things are awesome.
go ported, it will be louder and you don't have to have a huge amp to get more bass, unless you want SQ only, then sealed.
skip on the titanium sub, I had one in the past, sounds great, but a $175-200 sub will sound just as good and not cost 300.
let them install it if you have never done it before OR if you don't have a friend who actually knows what he is doing install it. I have seen more "my buddy installedededed it and now the magic smoke dun come out" installs than I can count. that's my 2 cents

[GlassWolf]

"A ported enclosure system consists of a driver mounted on one side of a box that has an open tunnel or port which allows the passage of air in and out of the box. At low frequencies, the vent contributes substantially to the output of the system.

The ported enclosure system is characterised by lower distortion and higher power handling in the system's operating range, and lower cutoff frequency than a sealed enclosure system using the same driver. Distortion rapidly increases below the cutoff frequency however as the driver becomes unloaded, and the transient response of a ported enclosure system is usually inferior to that of a sealed enclosure system using the same driver. However, the lower cutoff frequency and better power handling within the system's passband often makes ported systems the alignment of choice for many speaker builders."
- http://www.diysubwoofers.org/prt/

key tricks:
tune the box low, near the Fs of the sub for best SQ. By doing this, you're usually within half an octave of the 20Hz hearing limit anyway and that's about where your subsonic filter will be. This means you really lose nothing to a sealed box by going ported in regards to how "low" it'll hit, and in fact with equal power, it'll hit harder being ported at that range. You'll also gain better power handling and better transient response, so in some ways the ported box is really offering you better detail to the music, having a faster driver response.

built properly, a vented enclosure can perform very well with minimal coloration or audible harmonics.

[71buickfreak]

absolutely

[Ryan from Ohio]

When you buy off E Pay you take a chance!

When you buy off good online retailers such as thezeb.com your in good hands.

They may not even want to install gear not purchased from them!

With alarms most places will only install what they sell. If you buy an off brand alarm you may have a real tough time getting someone to install it for you!

[audiobass10]

If you're going to buy everything nib..you might be better off spending the extra money at the local shop. The 10" Titanium is a great sub from what i've heard. Although I think you could get somethin as good for cheaper. How bout a Shiva or two ported? I'm gettin a crimestopper w/ remote start from my local shop for $199 installed. Good basic alarm. Not sure if you have a dealer that sells them. Also they say their running a special on that alarm, but they've been sellin it for that cost for a while now. Like Ryan said, most shops wont install alarms unless you buy from them. I'm lucky enough to have a guy that will install anything. Your best bet is to just ask around.

[71buickfreak]

crimestopper is good, I have used them before, but thae viper is the premier alarm. best warranty in the biz. plus if your ride gets jacked, they pay up to 2500 of your deductable!

[Ryan from Ohio]

Im a Compustar person :sm29:

They get my votes!

[audiobass10]

I'd be a compustar person if money weren't an issue. I'm not going to spend top dollar on an alarm for my Jeep Cherokee because i'll be getting rid of it in a little over a year when i go off to college. Then i'll spend the extra money. I also ordered a bright blinking led off ebay that is compatible with all alarms. It might be a good theft deterent. Rather than having your window broken into and then the alarm scaring them off..the light might make them a little uncomfortable to break in to begin with.Although its safe to say anyone who wants your stuff bad enough will get it no matter what kind of alarm you have. Someone told me your insurance lowers when you add an alarm. Is this true?

[GlassWolf]

yeah like when I did my mom's car alarm, it wasn't a matter of having a lot of high end gear in it, she just works night shift at a hospital as an RN, so ya get people drug seeking and such who try for easy cars to get money, and things like that.
I feel badly for people in that position, sure, but I'm not going to make my mother's car an easy mark because of any pity I may have. That being said, I spent about $65 on an Ungo/Clarion alarm for her SUV, and wired in a few other DEI sensors etc and made a very secure system of it. The problem I encountered was getting the installer's manual from Ungo. This is why most stores will not install alarms they don't sell. They eat any costs if there's a problem, and they can't get info from the companies who make the products because they aren't authorized dealers.

Needless to say for the Charger, I went with CompuStar's top end spread spectrum two-way alarm/remote starter with additional sensors. The alarm cost me around $600 and my own labor, but CS backs the alarm and supplies info even though I'm not a dealer for their products. They are a rare company in regards to alarms.
crimestopper, ungo, DEI/viper, clifford, alpine, and many other brands or companies are VERY tight lipped about install info, wire color codes etc for their alarms.

[aggybong]

I just installed the SoundStream 800.5 myself, and I have mixed feelings. That thing gets hot, and I think it shut off today for a second because of it. When I touched the heatsink, I burned myself. Anyway, as far as wattage goes, I only have one sub (10inch TypeR) and to me, its barely enough to keep up with the speakers which are at 50w rms each. It depends on how loud you want your bass to be compared to the speakers.