My Clarion APX1000.2 finally died at about 8 years of age. Had it into tan electronics shop for repair, but the board is just too messed to be worth fixing.
I am in the market for a replacement amp for my 2 12" DVC Concept subs (250W RMS each). I can't quite find what the exact power rating of how I had the APX1000.2 configured, which was running in Sum Mono mode at a 4Ohm load. That amp had Stereo, Bridged, and Sum Mono modes.
For a replacement, I am thinking about the Clarion XH7110 (460W RMS x1 @ 4Ohm), but I'm not sure if I'm comfy with giving the subs lower than their rated power so as to make the amp work harder. In which case maybe the Alpine PDX-M6 (600W RMS x1 @ 4Ohm) would be a better choice.
Does anyone have any other suggestions for this setup? Thanks!!!
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Specs for APX1000.2 in Sum Mono Mode / Replacement Amp Suggestions
230 watts per sub, vs 300 watts. That's really not that big a difference.
And the only time you subs or amps would be effected differently would be at full volume. As soon as you turn down the volume a couple db's your amps output will be cut by almost half anyways.
FYI, a gain of 3db's requires twice the power, so turning the volume down by 3db's would effectively cut your amps output by half. So unless your a base head, your amp and sub will never notice the difference.
If it was me, I would go with the alpine. No real reason, I just like them a little better than Clarion, and have had more experience with their products. And I do like the idea of a little headroom for when my inner bass head does come out.
And the only time you subs or amps would be effected differently would be at full volume. As soon as you turn down the volume a couple db's your amps output will be cut by almost half anyways.
FYI, a gain of 3db's requires twice the power, so turning the volume down by 3db's would effectively cut your amps output by half. So unless your a base head, your amp and sub will never notice the difference.
If it was me, I would go with the alpine. No real reason, I just like them a little better than Clarion, and have had more experience with their products. And I do like the idea of a little headroom for when my inner bass head does come out.
Thanks. That's what I was kind of thinking. I'm sure the Clarion could drive them well enough, but I do like the idea of more headroom and a cooler running amp. I also wouldn't mind trying a new brand.
I am definitely not a "basshead", as I like a well rounded clean sound all around. Sometimes I do like to pump some more bass around, but I don't think I push my subs to the max really ever.
The rest of my system incase anyone needs that info to help me make the best sub amp decision. As I am definitely going for Sound Quality:
- 2x Morel Hybrid 6 components
- 4 channel Concept amp
- AudioControl DQL-8 for OEM integration, Crossover, EQ
- 2 Farad Cap
- 2x Concept HZ-124 subs
- Sub Amp - ?
I am definitely not a "basshead", as I like a well rounded clean sound all around. Sometimes I do like to pump some more bass around, but I don't think I push my subs to the max really ever.
The rest of my system incase anyone needs that info to help me make the best sub amp decision. As I am definitely going for Sound Quality:
- 2x Morel Hybrid 6 components
- 4 channel Concept amp
- AudioControl DQL-8 for OEM integration, Crossover, EQ
- 2 Farad Cap
- 2x Concept HZ-124 subs
- Sub Amp - ?
Mmmm Morels. I have the Elate 3 ways with Supremo tweets, paired with two Ultimo 12s. They sound heavenly.
Ok so why 2 sets of components? If you were running a processor like the JBL MS8 I would understand. But the Audio Control is a pretty basic controller. So adding in rear speakers is actually going to take away from your SQ, and staging.
I don't run rear speakers, and haven't in many many years. I'm sure I will in my next car, but i will be using a processor that can take advantage of them to help my SQ and staging, not take away from it.
Oh and I've never, ever had someone tell me i needed them, even riding in the back of my car.
Another advantage to only running one component set. It frees up extra money for a better amp, and a higher end set of components in the front.
One more thing. You don't need a cap. Save the money for a better battery, and IF you have dimming problems, a better altinator.
Considering your system plans, and what you told me about your listening habits, your not going to need a lot of power, and caps are just a band aid for lacking power supply (or noise issues), and i don't see you running into either.
Ok so why 2 sets of components? If you were running a processor like the JBL MS8 I would understand. But the Audio Control is a pretty basic controller. So adding in rear speakers is actually going to take away from your SQ, and staging.
I don't run rear speakers, and haven't in many many years. I'm sure I will in my next car, but i will be using a processor that can take advantage of them to help my SQ and staging, not take away from it.
Oh and I've never, ever had someone tell me i needed them, even riding in the back of my car.
Another advantage to only running one component set. It frees up extra money for a better amp, and a higher end set of components in the front.
One more thing. You don't need a cap. Save the money for a better battery, and IF you have dimming problems, a better altinator.
Considering your system plans, and what you told me about your listening habits, your not going to need a lot of power, and caps are just a band aid for lacking power supply (or noise issues), and i don't see you running into either.
One more thing, I used to love Audio Control. I even have the DQS in my car.
And I have to admit, their customer service rocks.
But I've been through 4 DQS's. And they are VERY noisy. Every damn one I've heard has had some kind of noise to it. if you really start asking around, all of their digital stuff does.
And you can do way better for the money. Buy the time you get the DQL and dash controller, your looking at 7 to 8 hundred bucks. Add in tuning time at your local shop using their RTA or paying them to do it, and your easily looking at a 1000 bucks.
Trust me, I know. I went through it a couple years ago when I installed mine.
Or you can spend less, and have a controller that sounds better, has way more control, and is completely automated.
http://www.amazon.com/JBL-MS-8-MS-Digit ... 161&sr=8-1
And I have to admit, their customer service rocks.
But I've been through 4 DQS's. And they are VERY noisy. Every damn one I've heard has had some kind of noise to it. if you really start asking around, all of their digital stuff does.
And you can do way better for the money. Buy the time you get the DQL and dash controller, your looking at 7 to 8 hundred bucks. Add in tuning time at your local shop using their RTA or paying them to do it, and your easily looking at a 1000 bucks.
Trust me, I know. I went through it a couple years ago when I installed mine.
Or you can spend less, and have a controller that sounds better, has way more control, and is completely automated.
http://www.amazon.com/JBL-MS-8-MS-Digit ... 161&sr=8-1
That JBL does look like a good unit. I'll have to check it out. However, I am not sure what you mean about the rear speaker stuff.
First, I think it is pretty subjective in terms of what sounds good to different people. I feel that a rear stage makes the listening experience more full and emersive. They are not overpowering the fronts by any means, but they are present in the mix with a definite bias towards the front.
Second, I don't understand what you said about the rears and DQL-8 controller. The DQL-8 has separate rear channels with separate crossovers/EQs than the front. Also separate crossovers/EQs for the sub channels as well. So in that respect, how is the JBL better for a rear stage? And how is the DQL-8 "basic" compared to the JBL when refering to the rear stage and its capabilities?
Just want to make sure we are refering to the same AudioControl piece of equipment, so here is the link. The DQL-8 has a lot more sound shaping capabilities than the DQS you said you had. And yes, their customer service kicks some serious @ss (which a lot of the time, to me, is worth my money). Also, I got the DQL-8 secondhand from an aquaintance, so I didn't spend full price on it. But I absolutely love it!
http://www.audiocontrol.com/t34/5247/231512/Digital-Car-Audio-Processors/DQL--8-Eight-Channel-Line-Output-Converter-with-Auxiliary-Input-and-Digital-Signal-Processing.html
Also, I drive a big sedan (Pontiac G8), so the separation between the front and rear speakers, and cab space is pretty big.
You are right in that no rears would equal more money, however, I chose to go for rears as well as everything else. And I'm fortunate enough that I'm not on a tight budget. I also don't think I could have done much better in the way of better components. The Morel Hybrid 6s were their top of the line at the time, and still sounding great!
Anyway, thanks for the suggestions and opinions! I really do value them, and any more that were to come my way. Just taking my sweet time in picking a replacement amp, haha.
First, I think it is pretty subjective in terms of what sounds good to different people. I feel that a rear stage makes the listening experience more full and emersive. They are not overpowering the fronts by any means, but they are present in the mix with a definite bias towards the front.
Second, I don't understand what you said about the rears and DQL-8 controller. The DQL-8 has separate rear channels with separate crossovers/EQs than the front. Also separate crossovers/EQs for the sub channels as well. So in that respect, how is the JBL better for a rear stage? And how is the DQL-8 "basic" compared to the JBL when refering to the rear stage and its capabilities?
Just want to make sure we are refering to the same AudioControl piece of equipment, so here is the link. The DQL-8 has a lot more sound shaping capabilities than the DQS you said you had. And yes, their customer service kicks some serious @ss (which a lot of the time, to me, is worth my money). Also, I got the DQL-8 secondhand from an aquaintance, so I didn't spend full price on it. But I absolutely love it!
http://www.audiocontrol.com/t34/5247/231512/Digital-Car-Audio-Processors/DQL--8-Eight-Channel-Line-Output-Converter-with-Auxiliary-Input-and-Digital-Signal-Processing.html
Also, I drive a big sedan (Pontiac G8), so the separation between the front and rear speakers, and cab space is pretty big.
You are right in that no rears would equal more money, however, I chose to go for rears as well as everything else. And I'm fortunate enough that I'm not on a tight budget. I also don't think I could have done much better in the way of better components. The Morel Hybrid 6s were their top of the line at the time, and still sounding great!
Anyway, thanks for the suggestions and opinions! I really do value them, and any more that were to come my way. Just taking my sweet time in picking a replacement amp, haha.
Actually, the control between the DQS and DLQ isn't that different. The DLQ has a crossover, 130 bands of GEQ and 8 bands of PEQ. The DQS doesn't have a crossover, but it has 180 bands of GEQ and 12 bands of PEQ.
Compared to the JBL, they are very very basic processors.
The JBL can adjust phasing between each channel, time alignment, GEQ and PEQ, multiple x-over settings, and process a 2 channel input to logic 7 5.1 or 7.1 surround.
I know the DQL has separate rear inputs, but the rear speakers are still playing the same thing as the front. Cd's are recorded in two channel stereo, the only way for the rears to pay different is if your using a processor that can convert 2 channel stereo into 5.1 or 7.1 surround. Or you can build your own x-over network and run them summed mono, or bandpass.
The reason this is important, is the difference between absolute, and relative phasing.
Absolute phasing, is the phase of a sound wave as it leaves your speaker.
Relative phasing, is the phase of the sound wave as it arrives at your ear.
Ok now picture this. Your setting in your car, and you have sound coming from both of your door speakers. It leaves the speaker at the exact same phase, but because of the difference in path lengths it arrives at your ears at a slightly different phase, and at a different time.
If music was a simple sine wave this would be ok, and easily corrected. But music isn't. Music is actually thousands of sine waves overlapped and amplitude modulated depending on volume. And that's just in a simple 2 speaker setup.
The more speakers you add, the more sound waves you have arriving at your ears at different times and at different phases. Again, we are talking about the most basic of situations. Once you add in the cars interior, reflections, vibrations, and the different types of surfaces for the music to reflect off of, your really starting to mess with what your actually hearing.
Another little FYI, since I don't know your background. Any time a frequency crosses itself and is 180 deg out of phase, you will have cancellation. Thats why multiple sources, and reflections are so nasty to proper staging.
I'm not sure what year the supremo comp's came on the market, but the Elate and Hybrid's were both released in 2003 / 2004. And I believe Jeff Sanders installed some high end Morel mids in Rob Rice's Accord back in 96 or 97. One of the years he won the Pro class in IASCA.
If you really want a good understanding of this stuff, check out the FAQ section. Mainly the advanced theory stuff. It will give you a better understanding of phasing, time alignment, tuning, and how our ears figure the location of a sound.
There is even a post about rear fill, that goes deeper into the summed mono, and bandpass theories.
One more thing. If you get the chance, demo a well tuned and installed car either using the JBL processor with rear speakers, or a car with a basic 2 or 3 way set and no rear speakers. Do it.
I'm not talking about the basic install shop down the block. I'm talking about a car where the singer sounds like they are setting on the dash or hood, and you can clearly hear the difference between each musical instruments location. You might have to do a little traveling to do it, but I promise if you're into SQ it will be worth it.
Compared to the JBL, they are very very basic processors.
The JBL can adjust phasing between each channel, time alignment, GEQ and PEQ, multiple x-over settings, and process a 2 channel input to logic 7 5.1 or 7.1 surround.
I know the DQL has separate rear inputs, but the rear speakers are still playing the same thing as the front. Cd's are recorded in two channel stereo, the only way for the rears to pay different is if your using a processor that can convert 2 channel stereo into 5.1 or 7.1 surround. Or you can build your own x-over network and run them summed mono, or bandpass.
The reason this is important, is the difference between absolute, and relative phasing.
Absolute phasing, is the phase of a sound wave as it leaves your speaker.
Relative phasing, is the phase of the sound wave as it arrives at your ear.
Ok now picture this. Your setting in your car, and you have sound coming from both of your door speakers. It leaves the speaker at the exact same phase, but because of the difference in path lengths it arrives at your ears at a slightly different phase, and at a different time.
If music was a simple sine wave this would be ok, and easily corrected. But music isn't. Music is actually thousands of sine waves overlapped and amplitude modulated depending on volume. And that's just in a simple 2 speaker setup.
The more speakers you add, the more sound waves you have arriving at your ears at different times and at different phases. Again, we are talking about the most basic of situations. Once you add in the cars interior, reflections, vibrations, and the different types of surfaces for the music to reflect off of, your really starting to mess with what your actually hearing.
Another little FYI, since I don't know your background. Any time a frequency crosses itself and is 180 deg out of phase, you will have cancellation. Thats why multiple sources, and reflections are so nasty to proper staging.
I'm not sure what year the supremo comp's came on the market, but the Elate and Hybrid's were both released in 2003 / 2004. And I believe Jeff Sanders installed some high end Morel mids in Rob Rice's Accord back in 96 or 97. One of the years he won the Pro class in IASCA.
If you really want a good understanding of this stuff, check out the FAQ section. Mainly the advanced theory stuff. It will give you a better understanding of phasing, time alignment, tuning, and how our ears figure the location of a sound.
There is even a post about rear fill, that goes deeper into the summed mono, and bandpass theories.
One more thing. If you get the chance, demo a well tuned and installed car either using the JBL processor with rear speakers, or a car with a basic 2 or 3 way set and no rear speakers. Do it.
I'm not talking about the basic install shop down the block. I'm talking about a car where the singer sounds like they are setting on the dash or hood, and you can clearly hear the difference between each musical instruments location. You might have to do a little traveling to do it, but I promise if you're into SQ it will be worth it.
Thanks for that, I just may check that stuff out.
Like I said before, anything sensory is VERY subjective. No matter how technically accurate, different people will have varying opinions about what they are experiencing. For myself, I am not looking to have the craziest most accurate setup (especially in a car), as it's just not practical. Just something that sounds to my ears what is good sound. And for the most part, I think I've achieved that.
So I don't see why the rears can't be playing the same thing as the front. As my intent is not to create a surround sound theater experience. I'll do that in the home. (Again personal preference). For me, good sound in the car is a plus and a very enjoyable experience since I do drive a lot, but probably wouldn't go that far to worry about precise timings and phases. To my ears (and a lot of other people's) it sounds exceptional.
One could also argue that listening to a "fake" surround sound which is taken from an original stereo source is not enjoyable either. Nor is it listened to in the way in which it (or the artist) intended. Again personal preference. To me, it would depend. Some might be neat and sound good, others not so much.
The DQL allows me to put the rears on a different EQ/Crossover, and differentiates them from the front a bit. The DQS cannot do this.
I do have quite a bit of technical background (some topics more than others), so I do find all of this stuff very interesting. So yes, I get the cancellation thing, etc.
Once I get tired of the DQL-8, I may have to look into something like the JBL or other similar products. One thing I must say though: as modern cars become more loaded with different options, I think the OEM Integration units are the way to go.
It's funny how I go away and don't even think of anything audio for a long while. But then a fried amp brings me right back into it and interested again. Then once I get my amp (which I'm leaning toward the Alpine PDX-M6, btw), I'll forget all about this neat little world.
Like I said before, anything sensory is VERY subjective. No matter how technically accurate, different people will have varying opinions about what they are experiencing. For myself, I am not looking to have the craziest most accurate setup (especially in a car), as it's just not practical. Just something that sounds to my ears what is good sound. And for the most part, I think I've achieved that.
So I don't see why the rears can't be playing the same thing as the front. As my intent is not to create a surround sound theater experience. I'll do that in the home. (Again personal preference). For me, good sound in the car is a plus and a very enjoyable experience since I do drive a lot, but probably wouldn't go that far to worry about precise timings and phases. To my ears (and a lot of other people's) it sounds exceptional.
One could also argue that listening to a "fake" surround sound which is taken from an original stereo source is not enjoyable either. Nor is it listened to in the way in which it (or the artist) intended. Again personal preference. To me, it would depend. Some might be neat and sound good, others not so much.
The DQL allows me to put the rears on a different EQ/Crossover, and differentiates them from the front a bit. The DQS cannot do this.
I do have quite a bit of technical background (some topics more than others), so I do find all of this stuff very interesting. So yes, I get the cancellation thing, etc.
Once I get tired of the DQL-8, I may have to look into something like the JBL or other similar products. One thing I must say though: as modern cars become more loaded with different options, I think the OEM Integration units are the way to go.
It's funny how I go away and don't even think of anything audio for a long while. But then a fried amp brings me right back into it and interested again. Then once I get my amp (which I'm leaning toward the Alpine PDX-M6, btw), I'll forget all about this neat little world.
Do some reading on logic 7 when you get a chance. Cause its not fake surround sound created from a two channel source. It actually uses the rear speakers to enhance the sound stage that is present IN FRONT of you.
So your sound stage stays intact, and isn't pulled to the rear of the car, by speakers playing the same thing. And it automatically adjust for phasing and time alignment, so you don't run into the relative phasing issues.
Keep in mind, when I hear someone tell me they want SQ. The first thing that crosses my mind is proper tonal balance, AND the most realistic sound stage they can produce given the limitation of their car.
I think you were looking more for tonal balance, and weren't worried about staging. That's why my answers were pointing you in a direction that wasn't quiet clicking with your goals.
And I'm glad your happy with the way your car sounds. That is our ultimate goal anyways. To design and build something that we can enjoy for years to come.
So where do you live at? I'm wondering if there are any shows heading your way that you could demo some of the top cars in the US?
So your sound stage stays intact, and isn't pulled to the rear of the car, by speakers playing the same thing. And it automatically adjust for phasing and time alignment, so you don't run into the relative phasing issues.
Keep in mind, when I hear someone tell me they want SQ. The first thing that crosses my mind is proper tonal balance, AND the most realistic sound stage they can produce given the limitation of their car.
I think you were looking more for tonal balance, and weren't worried about staging. That's why my answers were pointing you in a direction that wasn't quiet clicking with your goals.
And I'm glad your happy with the way your car sounds. That is our ultimate goal anyways. To design and build something that we can enjoy for years to come.
So where do you live at? I'm wondering if there are any shows heading your way that you could demo some of the top cars in the US?
Thanks for the info, I'll have to check all that out. Definitely have been out of the scene for quite some time.
I'm at Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. So car audio really isn't the most practical thing here, as we really only get about 4 months of summer. Our temperatures range from +30C (+86F) to -40C (-40F). The average in the winter here is about -20C (-4F). So with all the temperature changes and running things in the winter to heat up, cool down, heat back up, etc, any car gear gets a serious sh*t kicking. I usually take my subs out once it gets below -15C. By the time they warm up enough to play at a decent volume, I'm already at my destination, haha.
But I definitely will check it out. Although, I'd rather spend the money on a new pair of Twin-tip Pow Skis. :happy055:
Thanks man!
I'm at Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. So car audio really isn't the most practical thing here, as we really only get about 4 months of summer. Our temperatures range from +30C (+86F) to -40C (-40F). The average in the winter here is about -20C (-4F). So with all the temperature changes and running things in the winter to heat up, cool down, heat back up, etc, any car gear gets a serious sh*t kicking. I usually take my subs out once it gets below -15C. By the time they warm up enough to play at a decent volume, I'm already at my destination, haha.
But I definitely will check it out. Although, I'd rather spend the money on a new pair of Twin-tip Pow Skis. :happy055:
Thanks man!